The New Format of Let’s Talk Retouching!
I want to introduce a new format to this show. To begin with this episode, Kai, please give us a very quick overview of who you are, what you do and then we will dive deeper into all the good and interesting things later on.
Who Is Kai and What Makes Him A High-End Retoucher?
Kai got into retouching quite some time ago. His ambitions came after realizing he was not doing much with his life. He wanted to change but did not yet know what this thing might be. Starting with videography and YouTube he got involved in the creative field. Later got interested in photography too yet realized his photography was not on the level he wanted it to be. However, his love for Photoshop was fueled and he was getting much better at it than with photography.
From there on Kai focused on mainly retouching and was getting better and better. Focussing on only retouching and putting all his efforts into becoming better in the craft allowed him to take on clients and retouch for photographers and magazines.
Main Focus Of Retouching
Kai mainly enjoys detailed work. Therefore his focus has become people. Mainly working on beauty images and fashion. He prefers close up skin work over anything else.
As a man, it might rare to be into makeup but Kai loves it and he is super interested in the application in makeup and the current trends. This surely helps him in retouching images in the field of beauty.
What Allows Kai to Get His Job Done:
Kai usually starts with capture one and exports his processed files without any sharpening applied.
He only does sharpening after exporting different variants for his clients. He also adjusts the images color profiles in export depending on his client’s needs.
Kai’s Pro Tip:
The best tip he can give to others and what has helped him grow the most is learning to zoom out.
He does explain this in more detail in our podcast!
hey guys my name is Daniel and I am your host on the let’s talk retouching podcast follow along when we talk with industry professionals about all things post-production and retouching I’m sure it will either be entertaining or educational so please enjoy [Music]
let’s get started with the Android retouch podcast and today’s episode I have a guest a friend of mine who was also retoucher his name is Kai hello Kai and welcome on the show hey thanks for having me for this episode I want to introduce a little bit of a new format to the show and we will begin with a little overview of getting a perspective on what kaya is doing and I would like to have Kai give us a quick overview of what he is doing and then later on we will dive a little bit deeper in all the topics we just mentioned so let’s do this yes as you said I’m a researcher I’m currently doing this full-time I image down to mainly doing beauty and portrait retouching I also do fashion from time to time but it’s usually I share fashion with another researcher and we are working together so okay that’s a very brief and quick overview to get started again you’re a full-time retoucher and I want to get into a little bit of what retouching is about and then maybe you can start with telling us a little bit about how you got into the field of retouching in the first place and yeah then I have a few questions Manju where we can take things yes so let’s start with how you actually got into retouching because I think for most people it’s interesting to see how people got where they are and especially because there is not one half the follower and is not an education you can take to become a retoucher so maybe can’t get into this first yeah of course it’s kind of a long story a couple of years ago I think it’s five years ago I basically did nothing with my life I was aiming all day long and I wanted to change that so I bought a camera and I actually wanted to film with it so I was totally into filming and YouTube Devin Supertramp was a big inspiration that I wanted to do the same thing and after a while I realized that you need people who do the same thing with the same passion to create stuff and I didn’t know anyone who also is into the creative field so I started doing photography because I could do this on my own just run around and shoot everything from the flower to the pretty girl from the neighborhood then I dived deeper into photography and learned more about it I was curious about people photography and pretty soon I realized I wanted to work in the beauty and fashion industry so I started shooting models started with hobby mothers who thought they were models and I thought they were models but later down the road I reached out to model agencies got their models and at some point I realized I am a bad photographer there probably were worse photographers but I would have never reached the level of being able to work where I wanted to work right I think that often happens and it was the same for me and I just recently in the episode I introduced myself it was a little bit the same experience so you pick up a camera and you start shooting and then you notice okay you kind of making progress but you still rely on maybe Photoshop or to fix things or trying to get better and you’re still not you have this picture in your head where you want to end up with and you’re not getting here so I think some people just give up at that point keep doing what they’re always doing and other people they changed things so how was it for you so have you changed from there on well it took me two shoots to realize I suck at what I do but I was already doing retouching on the site already did a couple of collaborations and when I finally realized that photography isn’t quite for me then I just put away the camera and didn’t pick it up ever since I started to completely focus on retouching and learning more on doing editorials and collaborations getting clients and I’ve never looked back to photography okay it was it felt like a relief to stop doing photography because now I could focus a hundred percent on doing retouching getting better there and I am far closer to my goal then I would have been in photography yeah and it makes a lot of sense if you feel like having found your passion and putting all the effort in it then you’re growing and getting better on a much quicker rate then trying to spread all your efforts into different things are not getting better in any of them just also big fan of niching down I mean you can you can’t really learn multiple things get great at it you need to focus on one thing and and master it otherwise your check of all trades master of none and who wants that yeah obviously most people want to be successful at something what I also think most people don’t dedicate themselves in a way they could also finding the things they are good in because we’re not all equal and we have maybe just in all the effort in the thing with that doesn’t make us successful so sometimes it’s just a good idea to take a step back and think about what you might be able to change in your life and where you might take things so it’s all like a journey and yeah I mean it’s a it’s a complicated thing if you’re kind of stuck and it gets easier when you find the confidence in knowing that you are on the right track so okay you eventually got into retouching and found your passion and I know you like doing what you’re doing and getting better every day and looking for bigger and bigger clients so you briefly mentioned it before but which is your favorite field of retouching to work in yes it’s beauty beauty and portraits like close-up select details I enjoy detail work a lot and I have a feeling that I just have a natural feel of what looks what looks good looking at the image and I see what has to be fixed and what is disturbance in the image and I can’t really explain it usually comes from my gut and the clients like it at least it seems like it but you also mentioned working in fashion and write you’re working on fashion images as well so how do you think are they different and what you like more about the beauty thing then you like about and working on fashion images well as I said like details or not like when you have really crisp skin structure which you usually don’t see that much in fashion because of course you’re closer in beauty than you are in fashion in fashion colors and composition and all that matters more and the detail work of course it matters a lot in beauty and poetry as well so for me it’s also the same I do both fashion but also beauty and I personally also like beauty much better just because of the fact that I am super grown to faces and the facial structure and shapes and how humans are so different and then another thing I noticed is like there are quite some men working in fashion like doing post-production but for beauty images is you to the topic of the purpose of creating Beauty images is mostly to advertise for our makeup and staff and therefore it’s it’s kind of mostly women I would say and I get it a lot like getting asked how you as a man can do it because I’m not experienced like women who do their own makeup and stuff like this so have you ever encountered something similar like getting weird questions or what I also get is when you know stuff about how makeup is applied and seeing it in real life for girls who are not as experiences like it professional makeup artists I’m actually a pretty big makeup fan I hated walking you through a drugstores and check out the latest makeup put it on my hands and when it glitters it’s the best and yeah I also enjoy seeing the makeup work the artists do on the faces and also my girlfriend is a photographer and whenever she has a makeup artist there I usually look what they’re doing so I can learn from it because you can learn from everything and apply it to your profession yeah it makes a lot of sense and you’re obviously being interested in the topic itself helps you grow and also stay up to date with the current trends which is important because as a retoucher we have to know why something was applied the way it was because otherwise we might maybe fix something that was not supposed to be fixed or other scenarios I could imagine but yeah having this interest I think really valuable yeah again as a man it’s usually not expected so I sometimes get weird questions I mean for you working with a girlfriend and being super into makeup it’s probably a different story than it is for me so yeah well yes I also get a lot of questions about what I actually do I live pretty rural and for people here a photographer is the small town photographer who does the wedding shots of some couple and they don’t really know there is an entire beauty industry or even the need of researchers they ask a lot of questions what I do there and why this even is needed and if they could just sent me their selfies and I would make them pretty and I try to touch all those questions as good as possible because I’m just tired of telling them what this is actually about and you probably also know they the entire discussion if retouching is bad or not yes sure but I think it’s an interesting topic to talk about as which clients we work for and running it as an online business versus living in a more countryside area and having local businesses local photographers with much different needs and I can agree some of them they don’t have the experience with retouches they might ask questions if who would pay the amount of money we get for all the retouching and if there’s even a market for it but obviously they just come from their standpoint of what their business is based off and it’s a completely different world though is they’re shooting for private clients that’s completely different than advertising agencies and photographers working on yeah advertising campaigns so it’s a whole other ballgame and not everyone in smaller cities understand the concept so yeah we may be a little bit later we talked a little bit about how we might reach out to clients and how our business model might be structured so the next thing I want to get into so we talked a little bit about how you got into retouching and which use you are working in and also a little bit of what I do so the next thing is I want to transition a little bit into workflow staff and first question I have is let’s talk a little bit about the stuff you are using to get work done so first questions we all have to use some sort of computer and first question will be I your PC guy or are you a Mac guy a hard person PC good ok so no hate here to do all that Mac users I’m a PC guy as well maybe you want to explain why you like PCs better than max because I have always used pcs I have the feeling with a PC I get more bang for the buck I can build by myself I can administrate them myself which you could technically do with the Mac as well but yeah Mac’s are expensive that is one of the biggest reasons I don’t have the customizability I have for the computer I think Mac’s are great if you buy into the entire Apple ecosystem because that’s what it actually is for I mean what you can’t really benefit from it but if you have the entire ecosystem it’s actually pretty cool but for my work my PC is fine and I also don’t use any other Apple product so it’s pretty clear where I will stay ok so it gets the job done and it’s cheaper and more efficient for you so yeah I mean I don’t want to start the discussion but I think it’s like a nice teaser question because everyone has an opinion why they’re sticking with one or the other so yeah but other than computers what are you using are using a tablet I hope you’re not using a mouse I mean I know you’re not using a mouse but I think I’ve even seen like when you’re browsing YouTube and watching videos and hear the clicking noises when i recording tutorials like my hand you’re not really professional you’re using a mouse and again so let’s talk about he had a hardware you using to get your retouching work that well first of all use of course my welcome into his pro s I prefer the S over the bigger ones because I don’t want to move my arm around for eight hours a day some people use a smaller projection some use the normal one and I also use the normal one I try too small a projection but it wasn’t for me it was a bit too fiddly well well I mean I I’m a guy using really small areas but I can understand like when you’re really zoomed out and it gets super hard to you work precisely but yeah a small Wacom tablet is also what i always recommend for retouching because I think it’s it’s much different the approach and the type of hand movements we are doing compared to people who are drawing our digital painting and that’s why I tend to recommend like a smaller version it also keeps your desk a little bit cleaner and nicer and more economic so yeah I think it sounds like yeah like you see it the same it’s more efficient and you don’t have to lift your arms as much as you would have with a bigger hammer I just wish it hurt more buttons in transversally the small one only has six and well I would just need a couple of more buttons above the rocker ring because these three buttons below I normally don’t use but I could use some more above okay so you are using PC probably using Windows and your tablet and have you any other accessories you rely on let’s talk about maybe monitors because color and what we’re seeing and calibration is a big part of our work usually so what are you using there I use a nice screen it’s a 24 inch model which came in at a pretty affordable price for a professional screen and I’m actually pretty happy with it I also prefer 24 inch over 27 inch because it doesn’t really matter at all if you are zoomed out or even zoomed in because the actual image size doesn’t really change you just have further to go with your cursor if you have a larger screen which I don’t really see the benefit of oh yeah I think the the only advantages except from your image can have more stuff open at the same time but the other thing is if you really needed while retouching so I have some stuff open for myself that I sometimes just take lens and that’s it so otherwise it’s just comfort to not have to click anywhere to open it up what I could also work on a smaller like when I’m working on the Cintiq it’s much smaller but yeah as you can sue in and out it becomes kind of irrelevant to a certain degree of how large your monitor is so it’s not like doing video editing where you benefit from having the super wide monitors so I think you’re good as long as you’re investing in it in a quality monitor that can display all the colors and is accurate and you can calibrate it I would say that’s much more important than the size of the monitor another really important thing is the color uniformity and light uniformity which is also better the smaller the screen is you they usually using edge lighting and some sort and and therefore they’re they might have areas in the corners that are not illuminated properly or in the middle of the screen they’re not the same at the edges and stuff like this I’ve seen that as well so okay next monitor using using an ISO 24 inch using a computer running it on Windows for calibration is the I saw a model that has the calibrated built in or do you have an external one I have an X right I one in use because my ISO doesn’t have an integrated calibration device and as far as I know they are only for proofing aren’t there you can basically use their software as you’re using the X write software to automate the process so what it can do is you can tell the eyes of monitors to calibrate themselves so maybe every week overnight and it just as long as it has power it pops out and does the calibration for you on an automatic basis so you can basically forget it but on the other hand it’s when it’s built in and it doesn’t work properly anymore after you to invest in and make sure one or get a new monitor so that’s the onset of having a calibrated built in and as for calibration where are your calibration targets usually what what are your preferred settings for calibrating yes pretty far off from everyone else as far as I found out first of all I’m sitting in a controlled environment all my life pubs are 5000 Kelvin and no light from outside leads in so I also calibrate my screen to 5000 Kelvin and I have it pretty loaded I’m thinking I’m at 80 candy yeah it makes sense so I have written articles about color calibration and war monitor calibration and I tend to also take in account where like when I am working on my desk how the light that is on might influence my color vision so I’m usually a little bit warmer than 65 B and for you having all your lights at 50 D makes sense to also calibrate to that white point and depending on on how bright they are so if you can dim them down obviously not going to need like 120 Candela brightness so I mean we have standards and obviously when you are using a software and just applying something it does the job if you don’t know what you’re doing but it’s not necessarily the ideal setting for you maybe I also like working with reading lights around me just to minimize the effect of how it might influence how I see what’s going on on my monitor and therefore I also put the brightness way down I think also like 80 or 90 something around that which usually is fine when you have a good monitor and it’s also better for your eyes yeah the thing how I like to explain is the brighter your environment the brighter your monitor should be but if your monitor is bright and if your environment is dark it’s getting really tiring for your eyes overtime yeah because obviously you don’t have any light around the only light you’re getting is blasting right into your eyes it is really a comfortable thing to be wrong with and the settings like 65 the 120 Candela per square meter usually come from so if you are at Ruth’s desk or if you are trying to match your monitor to light box that has a fixed illumination so then it becomes much more important how your values are chosen because you’re matching two different media’s other than that you are matching to your environment which makes sense to me I mean other people obviously recommend differently or some reasons but it’s nice to see that a lot of people also take this in account where they are set up and how the light looks around them so that’s nice to see from my side that you are doing that and I can also just recommend having a look at where you put your monitor what you have around yourself because everything is influencing you so if you’re wearing like a bright yellow shirt sitting in the dark and Havoc’s we’re right monitor you will get color browns from your shirt going up into your eyes and stuff I guess and some people they might not notice like being affected but usually you are in some way or the other no I didn’t even think of that good thing I don’t really own any colorful t-shirts oh yeah like alright it’s usually the way to your right exactly so who needs colors anyways I mean I would assume seeing you in a neon pink shirt it would be fun but probably not going to happen and if so I I wanna wanna have a picture of it I almost bought a knitted pink shirt a couple of months ago but we decided for a red knitted shirt which is also cool but I wanted the pink shirt so I’m kind of a goofy guy something everybody probably not wearing it why are we touching maybe we should do t-shirts like a retouching outfit in the most annoying colors just for fun so anyways the next thing I want to talk about is like I talked about the hardware and all the stuff so now let’s get into you which softer you are using to get your work done and oh maybe talk about these software you’re using so far RAW processing image editing and then we can transition into or maybe you start explaining how your workflow is set up from start like opening up and then talking a little bit about a soft bottom as you go well for start use capture one for the entire row conversion so you’re importing your files from your clients so I know both Lightroom and capture one they have image libraries where you can tag and saw through your images but capture one also offers you da option to just work session based and not catalog based so which is your preferred way to do I actually prefer the cataloguing of Lightroom because I think it is way easier to see where all the files are still a work session based and capture one I do the project import the files start matching the images light wise and then I go to photoshop so it doesn’t really do a lot in RAW processing now make sure the images are properly exposed they are all have kind of the same exposure maybe open up the shadows a bit to get to bring the details back in order to get a good foundation for you rate hatching right exactly and one of the most important things drag the sharpening down to zero because it can mess up all your cloning so yeah as far as I know they’re setting and capture one also to export the image and disable the sharpening completely and I do that for most cases we’ll also drag this happening down for once I think there are way too many images out there that are completely over sharpened they have artifacts and people just might not be aware of how destructive sharpening can be and how it can diminish the quality of your image and there are also other ways of making an image appear wrapper without the super small radius sharpening going on in the image because that easily creates artifacts and you can’t get rid of them any more without even more diminishing the quality because you may be might be able to blur it but again you won’t be able to get the original quality back so I can agree on sharpening if necessary later but I’m a fan of sharpening has the less possible yeah I also perrolli to any sharpening to the image because it’s usually not not needed I can’t even remember when I when was the last time I yeah I also really get clients to get back to me and ask for more sharpness anyway so I think we have a tendency because also there are a lot of tutorials out there as explaining how to sharpen and it might be an easy way for people to think they are enhancing the images but I think also there are better ways to enhance images in a more quality way as well I think all there is to say about sharpening not chatting too much and too much usually is sharpening basically yes let’s talk about your workflow um is there a preferred color space you are working in and also when you are delivering your images which five forwards are you exporting in which color profiles and stuff like this so I think that’s also interesting for the listener stage to hear about well I work in Adobe RGB because why would I want to miss out on any color especially if my screen enables me to to see them when I export the files are usually give the client a couple of of exports usually export them a web version high-res and as our GP then I also give them a Facebook version with the right resolution for Facebook and of course they will get a high-res flattened PSD with Adobe RGB I even wrote them a little note how they properly export their Adobe RGB file to whatever they want yeah it’s a good thing to know because like we always expect the other side to do the right thing but sometimes it’s good to just include a little note how to treat it the best way possible so can harm to set up a routine and to always include such notes to your clients or at least what I always ask how the preferred way for delivering the former is or the file is in terms of the color profile person like editorial that might directly work with a printer and others dayi will push the files folder to someone else and that might influence how they want the fights to be delivered basically so yeah it can be a confusing topic Julie declined and and the contractor side if it’s not clear how to deliver it so either way giving it different options there’s a good way I think or setting up the communication in a way that it’s super clear to both sides how to deliver the files and how the result of the work should be delivered the instructions of from the printer is as good as it gets but it’s not always the case that you have clear instructions and I don’t know if you’re talking to an art director creative director whatever they usually have other things in their mind then color profiles and stuff the might you not even know what all that is about okay enough of of color chalks because like we know colors not important right where it is but back to retouching as as we went over what gear you are using to set this up you are working on a computer using Windows using capture one for a row processing mostly and then Photoshop you are working in Adobe RGB because you have this fancy ISO monitor which also is capable of displaying and I guess ninety-eight percent at least of Adobe RGB and then you’re exporting in different formats for your clients but what I want to get into is to get away from the hardware stuff can you give us one thing that has changed not in your life but how you approach things and was one of the bigger influences of of yours and which you would have wished to know earlier on in your research in Korea zooming out zooming out literally changed the way I work it changed how my images end up they look at that better I save a lot of work save a lot of time so zooming out I mean I know what you mean but there are probably some people who don’t understand how sue me out can make such a difference so you talk about like it’s saving work but can you just reference as what happens when you’re zooming out of the image and what changes for you what have you done differently like what actually is the stuff that saves you time doing that well usually when people come from frequency separation and bounced up and filters like that they are super happy that they now know about touch and burn which is super cool and the best way to read your skin yes well and when they start doing gouge and burn they’re all they go all in the zoom in and start retouching every pore with torch and burn even everything out and are super happy with it but if you look at the image as a whole you see all the big blotches the weird shadows and it doesn’t really look good to them it looks good because they lack the experience and the trained eye to really see the problem and I think if did everything right and so did I um but then I was taught to just zoom out and zoom out a bit more to get a bigger picture and when I do that I usually zoom out so far that the image is just a little like a stamp stamp sighs yeah right I mean we’re using technology and being able to get into a bird’s field of view or looking at the whole picture so to speak like taking a step back to see the whole picture like on so you can have all the details of taking like one or two steps back you can reference it in a different way then you can wire standing in front of it just one foot away because you don’t even see what’s going on on the address anymore because of your field of view and stuff like this and yeah so I can understand like how taking a step back literally zooming out is the same so when when did that change you briefly mentioned is like you have learned dodging burn on a different scale so to speak and I know there are techniques and they call it mostly micro dodge and burn and they’re getting into like even in out skin pores and stuff like this so how would you explain how long it took you to get away from this approach and maybe you even remember what got you away from it and how it felt saving a time and changing your approach on this technique um it didn’t take me too long because I have two great mentors who always tell me what I do wrong so I never did anything right and I’ve learned from it’s it’s changed my workflow drastically and I don’t really soo-min ever since especially if you work for for rap or just small prints often isn’t really necessary so I start zoomed out and work my my way in until everything looks just fine yeah and it feels great to have the feeling of having learned something new that’s improved the entire workflow but it always makes you question yourself what there is now that you don’t know and there always is something you don’t know and there always is new stuff to learn and I’m still learning every day I still get the most eye-opening little hints or tips but I could change so it basically means you always keep striving to get better and to be aware of not knowing everything and to be aware of making an effort to get better every day is getting you where you actually want to be otherwise here you might just learn something and reapply it to to your situation but maybe your situation might change at some point and it doesn’t work anymore so it’s always good to have different tools in your toolbox and yet learning and keep learning yeah stagnation is a bad thing so I always try to get better be it retouching itself or my business skills or whatever yeah and business skills are at least equally important and the retouching skills right well I think you need the retouching skills in order to even start a business otherwise you’re just a fraud and everything that comes then is business skills of course you learn more about retouching but you should be there that you can already do oh right right right and then you have to learn about like running a business and doing your taxes and all that stuff that nobody really wants to do what we all have to do it in some way or the other go to a big port and speaking of clients a lot of people struggle with approaching clients and how to get clients and one part you have already mentioned is to be good in the first place otherwise you might get a lot of denies to your requests of working for other people and yeah maybe you can explain like I know you are now working as a full-time retoucher so how was it for you to get into the field of retouching because obviously you at some part you haven’t had any clients so do you maybe remember your first client yes I think I do I think it was expanding the backdrop of a portrait which I did in one minute for 10 euros well yeah but I mean it was a page up so it was yes why not doing it it’s still like 10 years is a good income for like one minute of work so what things for approaching clients not necessary we don’t have to get into the sequences like how your you approach your clients in a direct way so I mean there’s like little secrets everyone has to have and everyone has a little bit of a different approach but how is your advertising maybe set up where do you want people to go to find you and which are the places you might look actively or in actively for clients like social media or do you how how do you tend to interact because like we mentioned before it’s not like a local business where you knock on doors so how do you like to approach it for your clients well I don’t specifically look for clients to be honest I do a ton of collaborations and editorial work and all that stuff and most of my clients came through mouth to mouth and I just look for great photographers to collaborate with and if they like my work the a will eventually hire me for their jobs because they of course also has a lot of work to do and they need a retoucher they frequently work with retouches or they haven’t yet but they are starting out so it’s kind of an investment in a future business relationship and it’s a good at wise I also can give us like in the as a retoucher you you the portfolio for your credibility and to showcase what you’re capable of doing and the quality you can deliver and it also might pay off putting in the effort to collaborations all to get the to do free work basically for getting the images to showcase what you’re doing so yeah a lot of people they just instantly want to get into like how can I get paid clients and stuff I guess in a while and maybe you should look for people and do free work and build your portfolio and stuff like that so you you’re also even as a full-time researcher recommending like going that route of doing free work building your portfolio and making connections on the way instead of just cold calling and stuff like this so from a business point I also see is like you’re not cold calling and asking like hey can you give me work are you more like hey I have something to offer to your business and at some point they see the value then in it and might consider paying you for it or hiring you for an upcoming project because they like working with you who you are and stuff like this do you see it the same way or do you have people asking you as well how you get into retouching and the client work so maybe to sum up what are your recommendations for us starting people to who want to get into retouching how could they approach the saturation what are your specific recommendations well first of all learn what great images look like then look for photographers who do those great images you can learn about it if you just subscribe to Vogue or Harper’s Bazaar or número and just learn how good images from the industry look like then you can write photographers there are groups for collaborations where I started out and got my first editorial works and I also look for photographers who shot cool editorials in magazines there are websites like modest calm where you can only find really good photographers and really good people from the industry because they have a certain level required to even list you so it’s given that the quality is high and from there I also send out cold emails to as a gesture collaboration and sometimes they get back to me and some sometimes they don’t so that’s how I reach out to people and get connections okay so we’ve talked about so many things in this episode and before we end this episode where can people find you work you can find my work at Aurora – retouch calm and on Instagram I think the handle is the same okay so these are your preferred ways to showcase your work as well it just popped up your website and you have a lot of beauty images commercial work there is nice and some portraits mostly like also the beauty images you doing and it showcases your passion for the field of beauty as well yeah it’s a nice portfolio overall I would say and I want to say thank you for making the time and talking to me and agreeing on recording this episode and I think there’s a lot of value for people in there and yeah thanks again for making the time and talking about all the stuff and little secrets you have going on in your life maybe you can give us an inspirational sewers of yours to end this episode where you like to go to look at quality stuff or whatever might be an inspiration for you well as I said I have a monthly subscription to the Vogue magazine I also love photo books especially vogue has pretty cool photo books of the last hundred years of vogue so again Thank You Kai for making the time and talking to us it was really pleasant talk and I really appreciate having you on the show so yeah maybe we can at some further point have you back on the show talk a little bit about different stuff but I think it was a great introduction to you and the work you’re doing and thank you again for being on the show yeah thanks for having me so guys that wasn’t I’m gonna get out of here I really appreciate that you have stick around for this long and I would also like to see you in the next episode see ya.